Italo Savella,
Thank you for your measured response.
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I have long been asking Giorgio "privately" to "tone
down" his rhetoric, and be brief.
But I have made no better progress with him, than I have
with you, in asking you to STOP "bashing" Italy and Italian Americans.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Thank you for more info on your parents. Now I'll
have to drop back and regroup, to figure out a different reason why you
are SO derogatory, so disparaging, so debasing of practically everything
Italian or the Italian American people.
- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -
I can't believe you say you like the Cuisine, the Charm,
the Artistry of Italy
You are talking like Italy is a Theme Park!!!!!!!!! That
is a VERY SUPERFICIAL compliment.
Then you feel that gives you liberty to LAMBAST
Italy and Italian Americans Every Chance you get. ????
Even in this Message you state: " I see the rot underneath, the effete decadence, the moral surrender in the face of the Islamo-Fascist threat in the hope of not jeopardizing their fragile prosperity, a prosperity whose only undergirding is the strength of the Pax Americana. But, in fairness, this is something that the Italians share with most Western Europeans.
Well finally you get around to observing as an afterthought
that this is NOT just Italy.
Such a typical Technique that you use. Are you oblivious
to this, or engaging in "clever" writing????
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Your use of Pax Americana ("American Peace") is laughable.
It usually denotes the period of relative peace in the Western World since
the end of WWII. The term Pax Americana is also used to describe
an effort made by the U.S. to suppress countries that do not cooperate
with U.S. policy. [There have been at least 77 Military Interventions by
the US since WWII.]
It places the U.S. in the military and diplomatic role of a modern-day Roman Empire or British Empire (based on Pax Romana and Pax Britannica, respectively). Now weren't they philanthropic regimes.??:)
The Project for the New American Century, a neoconservative
think tank, has been proposing military and economic domination of land,
space, and cyberspace by the United States, so as to establish American
dominance in world affairs (Pax Americana) for the future, with the Invasion
of Iraq by the US as the first major step toward implementing these objectives.
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Amazingly BOTH you an Giorgio are strong CONSERVATIVES
You Both seemingly support Each of your Countries DICTATORS/FASCISTS
many say (You Bush, He Berlusconi)
I continue to be amused by that similarity.
But let's Not quibble about their Titles, or Semantics.
Berlusconi you say controls the Media, and he who controls
the Media, controls the people's Thoughts.
Bush is the head a of a Corporate Oligarchy, disguised
as a Democracy, with the Media as his Lap Dog.
[Italo, we must speak in generalities, so PLEASE don't
bother me with exceptions. It does not further the discussion]
Who of even limited mentality can not see that.
The Corporations don't really care who gets elected,
those Corporations will BUY The Prez, or Congressmen, and get the Agenda
and Corporate Welfare, Giveaways, Tax Breaks, Immunities they want. What
a Democracy!! ??
I am a Centrist. I don't much care for the Hysterical
Fanatics of the Right OR Left !!!!!!
And I am NOT a supporter of the Charade we call a Democracy.
The principle has been waylaid and corrupted!
- - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - -
You say: "It's perhaps because of (my parents) that I entertained right-wing ideas in my youth....Call it youthful intemperance".
But Italo, you are an adult now, what can be your excuse
for your Right-wing attitudes NOW!!!!!!!!! ?????????
-----------------------------------
You say: you are " quite proud to be a citizen
of this great political experiment founded on principles of political liberty
and free enterprise called the United States of America."
OK , me too, but it is a "work in progress" and has a
long way to go, and may achieve it's potential through informed debate,
and getting rid of the Corporate oligarchy.
You remind me of a reformed prostitute. They so often become fanatic christians!!! One Extreme to the Other.
RE: << Do you realize, Mr. Annotico, that you and I belong to the only country in the world founded by practical political philosophers who bet that "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" were principles that could make that country work? And it has, hasn't it? And it will, unless we let liberals get the upper hand!>>>
NO, Adams and Jefferson who are considered the "Framers" of the US Constitution BORROWED Heavily from ITALIAN PHILOSOPHERS. Adams learned from Beccarria's "Crime and Punishment" (Which should have been titled "The Rights of the People") which Adams read in the original Italian, and Filippo Mazzei who was Jefferson's MENTOR before and after Jefferson urged Mazzei to become a neighbor.And incidentally, It was Mazzei who convinced Jefferson (among many other matters) to change the phrase "pursuit of happiness" which was an important theme in Beccarria's book FROM "the protection of property" !!!!!!
Those Italians. The More you get to know about them, The More You Love Them!!!!!!
Italian Philosophers of the Renaissance, Petrarch, Valla, Ficino, Pico, Pomponazzi,Telesio, Patrizi, Bruno built the Foundation upon which French, German and English Philosophers that followed "toyed" with.
Italy's unquestioned predominance was validated by Jacob Burckhardt in his "The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy" (1960). These names do not have the "ring" of a Plato or Aristotle, BUT they were a more important influence on MODERN Thought!!!
Please don't bring up Democracy in Greece, because it
meant that ONLY a VERY FEW SELECT persons were entitled to VOTE!!!! And
one Might say that Homosexuality was so prevalent in the that "Democracy",
that in order to have a TRUE Democracy we must
ADOPT Homosexuality as part of the Pledge of Allegiance?
:)
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There is No need to Comment on your Flag Waving. You are preaching to the choir. I served in the US Military, did you??
Iraci only points out the US's SORDID Past and Present, when you So Constantly and Consistently SCREAM out SUCH a Lop Sided perspective of Italy's or Italian Americans "Imperfections" and "nag" on them like a "Johnny One Note".
Giorgio may possibly also be driven to the other extreme,
by your Screeds, so the result is an "average".
Silly? Yes, But, It's YOUR Game!!!
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RE: << Professor Krase when he told us that the Italian Left considers Italian-Americans a lost cause. As though we should be concerned with their opinion and follow them in their willingness to calarsi le brache. Doctor Iraci, naturally, thought Professor Krase had no right to say he favored Prodi.
NO. Krase was not merely expressing an opinion on a Presidential
choice, which he is certainly entitled to.
BUT Krase was advocating ORGANIZING a group in the US
of Non Italian Citizens to INFLUENCE the Vote in Italy.
IMHO, Citizens in one country trying to Influence the
Vote in another country is overstepping their Bounds.
It is Impolitic, Inappropriate, and probably Counter
Productive.
NOW, If there were Those of US Who Have Italian Passports
Organized, that is an entirely different story.
WE are entitled to VOTE in Elections in Italy !!
BUT, I'm Not as irritated as Iraci is, There are other
more important items for me to focus on.
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RE: <<< No, I don't hate Italians. I do get polemical, though, with people like you and Iraci who do a disservice to Italy by, say, defending Mussolini's deeds before 1935.... My picking apart of your thesis on the duce did see the light of day.>>
Your reply was pathetic, and TOTALLY Non RESPONSIVE. You went on an obtuse tangential tirade, as usual.
Mussolini is Not a story of a Devil Incarnate, But of
Power Corrupting OR Three Bad Decisions, which could be argued.
(1) Ethiopia (2) Racial Laws (3) Alliance with Hitler
We Italian Jews were Very Influential in the Creation of Fascism, occupying many of the top positions. Fascism was in fact, WAY AHEAD of any system in Europe, in it's concern for the "little guy". We Jews continued to be unusually influential in the Fascist Party, particularly since we were only 50,000 in entire Italy at that time. Even with the Racial Laws, Mussolini had Much Jewish Support, even after 1937, because the only Jews that were Discriminated against were those that would not sign a Loyalty Oath to Italy.There was great concern about the "Primary" Loyalty of certain Italian Jews to Zionism, that he felt would be to the detriment of Italy.
It will be easy for you to go into your usual Rant and Tirade, But First, Please Keep an OPEN Mind and REREAD My Post About Mussolini. These are NOT My Opinions. They are QUOTES from Recognized UNBIASED Historians, Based on FACTS!!!!
You may Not Like them because they don't fit what you have been "force fed" to believe.
Notice the POSITIVE Comments of World Leaders about Mussolini, that Italy was one of the Few countries that because of it's Fiscal Policies avoided most of the effect of the 1930 Depression, and the Fact that FDR's NEW DEAL was entirely Based on Mussolini's SOCIALIST Ideas in place in Italy!!!!!!!!!
NOW, Don't try to accuse me of ENDORSING Every Action
of Mussolini, I am NOT, and I am absolutely against a police state.
I am merely trying to show the "overlooked" information
that will allow for a TRUTHFUL BALANCED Picture, that will result in Italy
fairly carrying less of a burden or stigma, which seems in direct contradiction
to YOUR objectives.
And try comparing Mussolini with some of his Contemporaries,
like Stalin, Hitler, Franco, Tojo, Albert II, Mao, to merely start with......
Did Mussolini ever order ANYTHING like the Tokyo Fire
Raids, or the Dresden Fire Raids????? Not to mention the Atom bombs on
Nagasaki and Hiroshima.???
And you might be interested in this Web Site that lists along with the above, a number of US Presidents that will soon be sure to include George W. Bush. "Killers of the 20th Century. http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/
You need to try to keep things in perspective, rather than acting like you are looking down the wrong end of a telescope.
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RE: << Succinctly, I argued that the Anglo-Americans
in September of 1943 had no obligation to divert forces from their laborious
slugging up the Italian peninsula...—with no help from the Italians—in
order to chase rumors of atrocities in an island off the coast of Greece
perpetrated against soldiers (Italians).
First: Military Historians Agree that Invading Italy was a BIG Mistake, and FDR & Stalin agreed that a Normandy Landing was Preferable, but Churchill Insisted on hitting the "soft underbelly" of Europe. BAD DECISION!!!!! Not so soft!!!!
Start at the toe and predictably "slog" up the penisula,
over countless ranges and rivers. Gross Stupidity!!!
If they insisted on Invading Italy, why didn't they use
Salerno type landings up toward Genoa or Venice or Both.
Out Flank and Choke off the German Supplies!!!
Second:RE Your statement: NO Help from the Italians????
What Planet do you reside on???
Again Military Historians say that the Partisan's
help was a critical component of the ultimate victory in Italy.
The Partisan contribution was to such an extent
that the Germans committed more than 500 MASSACRES with almost
TWENTY THOUSAND CIVILIAN VICTIMS in retaliation!!!!!!!!!
Try to expand your very narrow knowledge of Italian History, almost exclusively
about distorted propaganda of Fascism.
Third: Rumors?? Are documented SOS calls rumors??? A British
Warship was Just off the Coast and was CALLOUSLY Ordered away!!! "They
are only Italians" :( :(
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I'm not interested in calculating the number of angels
that sit on the head of a pin, so I will ignore the "something" argument.
I'll leave that to you and Giorgio who get their jollies
by dealing in infinitesima, trivia, and minutia.
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RE: << You see, Mr. Annotico, your "Giorgio" is
a cunning sophist, a clever user of words..., BUT HE IS NO MATCH FOR ME,
in either English or Italian... If I should ever have the chance to debate
this guy, I have no doubt.... that you'll feel sorry for him. No amount
of culture, and he has it in spades, much more than I, will help him, because
it'll be child's play to expose his dishonesty.
Actually, I recognize Giorgio's imperfections, and yours (and mine), But I find him to be Either more Honest, or Informed than you.
Further, I was on my College Debate team, and NEITHER
one of you could carry the jockstrap of our weakest debater.
You zoom WAY off Topic, And Giorgio takes forever to
make his point!!!
Now, if you're really talking about an unstructured Argument, and engaging in Babel, hmmm, I think you would win, because you engage in more obfuscation, and "flack", which defy logic :) Reminds me of our family Sunday Dinner Discourses many years ago.
ALL of you have a Nice Turkey Day!!!!
Richard Annotico
----- Original Message -----
From: Italo Savella
To: Annotico, Richard
Cc: Iraci, Giorgio & Roberta; Colacino, Carmine;
Krase, Jerry
Sent: 11/21/2005 8:12:30 PM
Subject: Point, etch.
Mr. Annotico,
I have reproduced underneath only your latest answer/inquiry
to me. I don't feel that the other addressees of this e-mail should be
bothered with ploughing through Doctor Iraci's latest and, as usual, lengthy
rant.
For the first time, I think you deserve a polite and
personal answer from me.
My guarded "thank you" to you was caused by the fact
that even you, at long last, felt the need to tell the benighted doctor
from Perugia to "stop shooting yourself in the foot," or, as the Italians
would put it, keep himself from darsi la zappa sui piedi. Funny how he
claims not to give a damn about H-itam as he nitpicks with a fine tooth
comb through every word posted in it!
You asked me about my parentage. I am as Italian as any
Italian-American can be. I had no step-parents. My father was a Brooklyn-born
Italian-American from two Italian parents who became a pharmacist and volunteered,
way before I was a remote twinkle in his eyes, for Mussolini's army in
the conquest of Ethiopia. He remained to his dying day a fan of the duce,
an anti-Semite, and quite racist in his attitude towards African-Americans.
My mother was born in Italy. Casalinga (homemaker) and possessed of only
a fifth-grade education, she had nevertheless some literary ambitions.
She, too, was a fan of the duce and one for whom Italians could do no wrong.
That was pretty much the extent of their agreement. I am told (I wasn't
born yet) that she cried her eyes out on September 8th, 1943, when they
announced the armistice and surrender of Italy to the Allies.
It's perhaps because of them that I entertained right-wing
ideas in my youth to the point that, when I was living in Italy—get a load
of this juicy bit!—I held for a year the tessera of the Movimento Sociale
Italiano. Got that, doctor Iraci?
Call it youthful intemperance. Since then, through reading
and reflection, I have come to regard the young Italo as quite stupid and
evolved into a republican-conservative who is quite proud to be a citizen
of this great political experiment founded on principles of political liberty
and free enterprise called the United States of America. Do you realize,
Mr. Annotico, that you and I belong to the only country in the world founded
by practical political philosophers who bet that "life, liberty and the
pursuit of happiness" were principles that could make that country work?
And it has, hasn't it? And it will, unless we let liberals get the upper
hand!
Now, I know what you are going to say: boy, you are a
sap! what about slavery? segregation? Indian reservations? ethnic prejudice
against Italians?
It is in our attitude towards these very real flies in
the ointment that you and I differ, that a liberal-democrat differs from
a republican-conservative. You see slavery and anti-Italian prejudice,
and you see the failure of those principles, the proof that they are a
sham and a cover for the bastards that made this country.
I see the failure of people. People are fallible. You
cannot legislate hatred and prejudice from the hearts and minds of people.
But I know that the strength of those principles, the fact that people
have to eventually own up to them, will eventually cause slavery to be
abolished, Jim Crow to be erased from the law books, and anti-Italian prejudice
to subside. Because America is a country for everyone.
This is what you, perhaps, and the curmudgeon from Perugia,
most certainly, don't understand.
And let me expound at some length over this man and his
country.
You think that I hate Italy and Italians. As I told Doctor
Iraci: not so, Mr. Annotico. I think that the country is full of charms.
Where else can one enjoy a dish of bucatini all'amatriciana washed down
with a glass of Montepulciano, or admire an astounding piece of work as
Ghiberti's doors in Florence's baptistery. No, doctor Iraci, I don't want
to destroy them! But those charms no longer seduce me. I see the rot underneath,
the effete decadence, the moral surrender in the face of the Islamo-Fascist
threat in the hope of not jeopardizing their fragile prosperity, a prosperity
whose only undergirding is the strength of the Pax Americana. But, in fairness,
this is something that the Italians share with most Western Europeans,
and which caused me to write a letter (un-posted) to Professor Krase when
he told us that the Italian Left considers Italian-Americans a lost cause.
As though we should be concerned wit! h their opinion and follow them in
their willingness to calarsi le brache. Doctor Iraci, naturally, thought
Professor Krase had no right to say he favored Prodi. I thought he did,
but he should have also allowed my two-cents worth about the fact that
the choice between Prodi and Berlusconi is not an exciting one.
No, I don't hate Italians. I do get polemical, though,
with people like you and Iraci who do a disservice to Italy by, say, defending
Mussolini's deeds before 1935 or trying to blame a grievous tragedy like
Cephalonia on the Anglo-Americans. My picking apart of your thesis on the
duce did see the light of day, if I remember correctly, on H-itam, but
Iraci was spared my fulmination to a wider readership by his baby-sitter
Lawton.
Succinctly, I argued that the Anglo-Americans in September
of 1943 had no obligation to divert forces from their laborious slugging
up the Italian peninsula in the face of a wily and determined enemy (the
Germans)—with no help from the Italians—in order to chase rumors of atrocities
in an island off the coast of Greece perpetrated against soldiers (Italians)
who, until a few days before, had been their enemies. It was a typical
attempt by Doctor Iraci aimed at letting the craven Italian leadership
of the time (that miserable king, Badoglio, and General Ambrosio) have
their cake and eat it, too.
Now, I will not answer any crap that Doctor Iraci might
convince Professor Krase to post on H-itam on this particular episode unless
the latter guarantees that he will post my rebuttal. I have no doubt that
whatever argument he makes, I will blow out of the water.
I will give you another couple of examples of his crap.
In his latest rant, he argues thusly:
You can notice, Doctor Colacino and Professor Krase,
that Mr IGS objects to my question about "something?" as a factor in the
distinction between "Italians" and "Southern Italians" on part of the INS
officers at Ellis Island, but admits he "suspects the reason for, but [
I ] won't discuss here" because of "no proof of it.". In other
words, he resents what he calls my "tendentious insinuations" while advancing
his own: he "suspects".
The doctor put, gratuitously, a thought in Doctor Colacino's
mind to the effect that the latter was aware of "something" that might
have induced American immigration officials to make the distinction between
"Southern Italians" and "Italians," and then asked him what that "something"
might be. Why don't YOU spell it out, Doctor Iraci, since you seem to know
what's on Doctor Colacino's mind?
**I**, on the other hand, simply voiced a suspicion that
was in MY mind, not anybody else's, but did not feel I had a right to articulate
since I have no proof of it.
You see, Mr. Annotico, your "Giorgio" is a cunning sophist,
a clever user of words (God knows that he made an impression on Lawton),
BUT HE IS NO MATCH FOR ME, in either English or Italian. He should pay
heed to the words of the American humorist W.C. Fields: you cannot cheat
an honest man. If I should ever have the chance to debate this guy, I have
no doubt (and this is no empty boast) that you'll feel sorry for him. No
amount of culture, and he has it in spades, much more than I, will help
him, because it'll be child's play to expose his dishonesty.
Finally, let me talk about one of his disconcerting fixations:
Taco Bell. I think I see you going: uh? He has brought it up several times.
He argues:
The cultural level of this creature [that's me] is such,
that he has as a cherished program to smash the contents of Italian museums.
It is also such that, when he shows American points of interest to his
son, all he finds is the phony, imitation "Old Spanish" architecture of
a Taco Bell restaurant on Sunset Blvd, Los Angeles.
Do you remember our debate about your complaint that
there were far too many Indians students in the US compared to Italians?
Somehow, the subject of directions on Sunset Boulevard came up and where
some place might be located on that very long thoroughfare. Sunset and
where?
I went to dig up my answer to you. Here's what I wrote
about the necessity for the Angeleno lady to ask the Italian students,
who wanted to know where the library was: Sunset and where?
Sunset Boulevard is some 20 miles long, starts in the
barrio just east of the downtown LA core, climbs towards Hollywood and
Beverly Hills, and winds its way on the other side to the Pacific Ocean.
It passes by Taco Bells and some mansions that I can't even start to guess
how much they cost. Second time I was there, I took my son with me and,
just for the heck of
it, we drove the entire length of it, and we saw many
Americas.
All I was saying is that Sunset Boulevard is very long
and it snakes through various settings. Does it sound to you that I was
extolling the architectural grandeur of Taco Bells to my son as compared
to, say, the Pantheon in Rome? Iraci thinks I was.
Incredibile!
For a change, it was nice talking to you, Mr. Annotico.
Have a pleasant Thanksgiving, Italo Savella
I believe Giorgio feels that when you stray into Italian history, that while you may have some deep knowledge in some narrow areas, that you are too often seemingly spouting a "party line" which in ANY party are mostly distortions, rather than your relying on views of both sides.
Further, I have Never understood your Anti Italian "jibes" and "sneers". We get enough of that from Northern Europeans, and Americans of ALL stripes and color, to have to stand for it within our midst.
Criticize if you must. But put it into perspective, NOT as if your complaints are a SOLELY Italian Trait, or Primarily an Italian Trait, as you too often phrase them.
Also, I don't seem to read that many POSITIVE Comments that you write about Italy, Italians, or Italian Americans.
Of your Personal History, I am under the impression that your Mother (Not your Parents) took you to Italy, which sounds like a Divorce. Then you cite your Father ( Perhaps Step Father) was a Pharmacist.
Was your Biological father Italian? Was your Step Father Italian?
It appears as if your Personal Issues have a LARGE Impact on your perspective.
It appears to reflect itself in a sort of Self Loathing,
or the also Common Pandering to the Powers and attempting
to Distance yourself from Italians, and trying to convince
THEM that you are REALLY one of Them!!!
Think about it.
You don't get under my skin, I just view you as a VERY
troubled Soul, who has a reputation for "off putting"
people with Antagonistic, Combative and Purposefully
Contrary Views.
It is the Conduct of a Person who is crying/begging for Attention.
I feel Sympathy, BUT I will stand with those who would
respond to your Misinformed and Misguided Attacks
against Italy, Italians, and Italian Americans.
Giorgio, I haven't figured out why he likes to ARGUE so,
BUT he does!!!!!! :) Whew!!!
But the guy knows his stuff, although his attitude toward
Southern Italians "rankles" me.
Also, Sure wish he wasn't quite so Verbose!!!!
Just like I wish you academicians were Not so Circular,
Circumventious, and Circuitous when you write.
It sounds like it comes from the Tower of Babel.
I am accustomed to Lawyer like "straight forward" Logical Persuasive Commentaries.
Respectfully,
Richard A. Annotico